Jump to content

Commons:Categories for discussion/2018/06/Category:Vehicles of heads of state

From Wikimedia Commons, the free media repository

Category:Vehicles of heads of state

[edit]

Harmonisation with the other vehicles categories Eddaido (talk) 10:20, 6 June 2018 (UTC)[reply]

The use of this category would benefit from harmonisation of its trees with the rest of the categorisation of vehicles. This is my proposal which I hope is self-explanatory.

Category:Vehicles of heads of state
Category:Aircraft of heads of state (currently at Category:Aircraft of heads of state and government
Category:Land vehicles of heads of state
Category:Road vehicles of heads of state
Category:Automobiles of heads of state
Category:Open carriages of heads of state (currently at Category:Carriages of heads of state‎)
Category:Sleighs of heads of state (currently at Category:Horse-drawn sleighs of heads of state‎)
Category:State coaches of heads of state
Category:Off-road vehicles of heads of state
Category:Rail vehicles of heads of state (currently at Category:Presidential railway coaches‎ & Category:Royal trains‎)
Category:Watercraft of heads of state
Category:Ships of heads of state
Category:Barges of heads of state (currently at Category:Royal barges‎)
Category:Yachts of heads of state

There is also the problem that many countries have one head of government who is the head of state — unless they have a monarchy and prime minister, or they have a president (as in Germany) as something of a figurehead of state together with a chancellor. How should this be handled? Eddaido (talk) 10:34, 6 June 2018 (UTC)[reply]

I see that Category:Heads of state is a sub-category of Category:Heads of government. Could we merge all of this to Category:Vehicles of heads of government (etc) and then mix the Queen Elizabeth's car with the Prime Minister's Theresa May's car, or whatever? - Themightyquill (talk) 12:56, 6 June 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Yes of course. Should this be done by replacing the word state throughout the tree with government? Eddaido (talk) 22:00, 6 June 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Yes, that's what I was proposing. Please give others a little more time to respond before acting though. - Themightyquill (talk) 21:49, 9 June 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Could that be 'heads of state and government', maybe even 'heads of state or government'? Eddaido (talk) 00:09, 10 June 2018 (UTC)[reply]
We generally try to avoid combining things like that, because there is no Category:Heads of state and government category for it to go in. But at least according to existing commons categorization, heads of state are one type of heads of government, so I think it's okay. - Themightyquill (talk) 06:58, 14 June 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Thank you. And I take it that's a green light for the "and" version not the "or" version? Eddaido (talk) 12:23, 14 June 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Well, this is a discussion and I have no special power to redlight or greenlight anything, but no, I'm not sure the "and" version or the "or" version are good or necessary. According to our current categorization Category:Vehicles of heads of goverment de facto includes vehicles of heads of state because heads of state are heads of goverment. But maybe I'm wrong on this one. Anyone else have an opinion? - Themightyquill (talk) 20:45, 16 June 2018 (UTC)[reply]
@Themightyquill: I've got a bit lost on this one. You are suggesting "Queen Elizabeth's car" HoS goes with HoG Prime Minister Teresa May's car but in which category? I'd have thought that in general the car of a head of government that was not also head of state would be fairly unremarkable, (tonnes of armour but) work-a-day rather than fancy. Commons does have photos of a car for Angela Merkel see Category:Audi A8 D3 (Angela Merkel) and Category:Automobiles of heads of state in Germany, maybe there is not a lot of difference?
We have images of (long gone) royalty and their transports etc for most old established countries so there is a use for separate heads of state categories in transport.
I now understand that this is a discussion, what are your thoughts? I just want to try to fit in with the overall scheme of things. Eddaido (talk) 02:18, 29 June 2018 (UTC)[reply]
@Eddaido: I'm suggesting Category:Queen Elizabeth's car and Category:Teresa May's car both go in Category:Automobiles of heads of government of the United Kingdom (currently at Category:Automobiles of heads of the United Kingdom). Given all the countries in the world and the fairly long timespan we'll cover, I imagine there is no consistency at all to what a vehicle of a head of government looks like vs the vehicle of a head of state. - Themightyquill (talk) 11:33, 29 June 2018 (UTC)[reply]
  • I have to say I find this all throughly confusing. I picked the example UK up above for no good reason at all, I am used to typing at some length the United Kingdom when that's what I mean. I have typed that phrase a great deal in the last month or more so it is a matter of habit and UK just a nonsense but it is easy to see how the misunderstanding of my intent arose.
  • Are you aware that Category:Automobiles of heads of the United Kingdom - I have never previously had cause to notice it - is an orphan that feeds into heads of state of the united k which feeds into heads of govt of the united k - it is a category Totally surplus to requirements and harmonises with nothing. Had you not noticed that?
@Eddaido: Haha! No, I hadn't noticed until I went looking for an example. That kind of thing abounds, so it doesn't get me too upset when I see it. I guess, before any move happens, we need to ask whether a "head of state" is a legitimate sub-category of "head of government". If so, we can just use "vehicles of head of government" and group together vehicles of prime ministers and figurehead presidents/royalty. If not, then we need to group Category:Heads of state and Category:Heads of government as peer/parallel categories with some other term to group them together. Then we could use that for the vehicles categories. - Themightyquill (talk) 18:42, 30 June 2018 (UTC)[reply]
(Heads of State / Government very much a minor matter)
My hope was to minimise that abounding which you speak of. Would you mind very much comparing the proposed tree at the top of this discussion with the current tree by clicking on the link. I think it would be very simple and straightforward to bring all these current categories into harmony with the rest of the Commons categorisation in the way I show up at the top. Many of the components are correct already. If you think this is just a foolish thought of mine please tell me now before we spend more time on it. Best, Eddaido (talk) 03:52, 2 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]
@Eddaido: I'll agree that it should be a minor matter, but that doesn't give us a way to solve the issue of heads of government which are not heads of state. Do we just leave their vehicles out of the tree? Put them all in Category:Vehicles of heads of government? Or do we put vehicles of heads of government in the tree for heads of state? - Themightyquill (talk) 22:49, 23 September 2018 (UTC)[reply]
@Themightyquill: Apologies for slow response, been thinking. My reading of Wikipedia (WP because I guess it shows the prevailing orthodoxy) is that Heads of Government are ranked lower than Heads of State. To please any purists and to avoid confusion I think we should keep both (e.g.) (Vehicles of) heads of Government and (Vehicles of) heads of State and that ()Government should feed into ()State. (but see item 1. below) But you know many things I do not know, how does that seem to you?
Eddaido (talk) 23:40, 24 September 2018 (UTC)[reply]
@Eddaido: No need for apologies. I was the slow one to respond, not you! I'm not sure if I understand though. Assuming we keep the category tree you propose at the top, does a photo of a road vehicle of a head of government simply go in Category:Road vehicles of heads of state? Or do we create a whole separate category tree leading to Category:Road vehicles of heads of government? (yes) Or do we just keep it in Category:Vehicles of heads of government and not sub-categorize unless it becomes very full? Thanks. - Themightyquill (talk) 06:35, 25 September 2018 (UTC)[reply]
1. Now that I look I see we already have Category:Vehicles of heads of government and Category:Vehicles of heads of state each feeding into Category:Official state vehicles. The original designers know things I don't so maybe it better stay as it is (instead of my suggested govt feeding into state)
2. I'm sure they can be deleted if you not approve my suggestion but I have taken the liberty of creating (many more than intended, please do not regard it as pre-emptive when forming your opinion) a number of categories in a heads of government tree because there are in fact quite a number of uncategorised images of that class.
Before I began investigating and experimenting I was, in any case, planning to suggest a separate tree noting that the policy of no image=no category would limit its use. That's still true, there are just far more candidates than I thought. These are the new categories I've made to see how it might work out.
Category:Vehicles of heads of government by country
Category:Automobiles of heads of government
Category:Automobiles of heads of government by country
Category:Automobiles of heads of government of Australia
Category:Automobiles of heads of government of Turkey
3. Ha! I see that we have a Category:Heads of state of former countries which collection seems to include former countries like Canada and Australia
That works for me. We could also create Category:Official state automobiles to group Category:Automobiles of heads of state and Category:Automobiles of heads of government and any other relevant automobiles. - Themightyquill (talk) 12:57, 26 September 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Great! I have created Category:Official state automobiles but I am in doubt as to where that should lead. In the meantime I have linked it to Category:Government vehicles. Where should it go? Eddaido (talk) 04:11, 27 September 2018 (UTC)[reply]
I've done this, I hope that works for you:
Best, Themightyquill (talk) 13:12, 27 September 2018 (UTC)[reply]

I wish I was able to understand the basic principles behind Commons Categorising. I have tried many times and, quite simply, I don't. I just have to copy. I'm going to take some time off now to see (amongst other things) if I can understand why you created this diversion about government automobiles and ignored what seemed to me important concerns! Right up there at the top of the discussion! 'bye for now. Eddaido (talk) 08:14, 30 September 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Eddaido Don't be sad. =) I wasn't suggesting we were done, or ignoring your proposal, just looking for ways to make it work. There doesn't seem to be any opposition, so I'd say, go ahead and make the changes you proposed. It won't be too much fun removing "head of government aircraft" from the aircraft categories as you move them, but it shouldn't be too difficult. - Themightyquill (talk) 06:42, 1 October 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Retrieved from "https://commons.wikimedia.org/w/index.php?title=Commons:Categories_for_discussion/2018/06/Category:Vehicles_of_heads_of_state&oldid=330565174"